Bio:
EB Sanders is a certified coach who’s worked in creative staffing and recruiting since 2007 and beyond wanting everyone to dig their gig, she believes you can (and should) design a career that fulfills you and gets you belting out Beyonce in the shower every morning.
Get In Touch:
ebs@ebsanders.com
Episode Transcript
Katie (00:01):
Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Hustlenomics podcast. I’m your host, Katie. And today I’m so excited to be talking with EB Sanders. She’s a certified career coach who teaches creative types, how to swap fears for fulfilling careers. Her sweet spot is showing you how to finally find your thing. So Eby, thank you so much for coming on the show today.
EB (00:20):
Thank you so much for having me, Katie. Absolutely.
Katie (00:22):
So I would love to learn a little bit more about you and your background and really how you got to where you are today.
EB (00:28):
Yeah, I’m kind of from the outside, my background looks a little meandering, much like a lot of my clients, but to me it makes a lot of sense. So I actually started out as a college professor and I don’t know how much you know about the education system, but it’s not the best funded. And I began to lose classes slowly and realize I had to take on a second job, which then had to become a full-time job. And so I found myself in staffing and recruiting in the advertising world. And from there I realized that, you know, what I loved most about my job was truly, truly, truly helping people grow their careers. And when you’re working within a company, the best you can do is, you know, help people work within the constraints of the company. And so I went out on my own and I’m now, you know, full career coaching for all sorts of people, not just within the ad industry. And to me, I can see the line through all three of these careers of mine is that I just, I really helped people figure out what they want to do with their lives. And it’s, it’s been an interesting road and one that I absolutely adore.
Katie (01:31):
Yeah. I’ve definitely read through some of your bio on your website and you do have like a fascinating background doing a lot of different things and it sounded like you were really, really passionate about both of those jobs being a professor and, you know, working the other job. And it sounds like you were really passionate about both. So what made you kind of want to decide to go out on your own and start a new business instead of still working in those fields?
EB (01:50):
So I had teaching been financially viable. I’m pretty certain I would still be teaching like true, like old school academic teaching. I genuinely loved it. I taught amazing classes like the history of creativity, really fun stuff. But it just wasn’t financially viable. I didn’t want to be a, you know, a grown woman worrying about, you know, if I’ve got to pay the electrical bill versus get groceries that week. So I started taking on you know, against having a quote unquote day job and I realized I had to put a hundred percent into each thing. So I finally had to acknowledge and let teaching go. And I did absolutely love my staffing and recruiting position, but what I realized is if I had people in my office crying and this is gonna sound really weird. Those were my favorite days because when someone gets to the point where they’re breaking down and they’re crying, like there’s, there’s somewhere to move from there.
EB (02:46):
But I was really constrained by I, if I knew they needed to leave our company, I couldn’t say, Hey, you need to quit on Friday. I just, you know, that would’ve gone against everything. My employers who signed that paycheck would have wanted me to do. So I realized that to truly help people like truly help them actually just grow their career and become who they want to be. I had to do it outside the constraints of someone else paying me a paycheck because then I was beholden to them and their needs rightfully so. So I started doing it a little bit on the side with clients that weren’t my direct reports or that I was managing at my job. And then that became a full-time thing pretty quickly because I just, again, yeah, I was very passionate about it and passionate about being able to guide people to their thing without corporate constraints.
Katie (03:37):
Right. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I can see how going into career coaching would be such a natural thing, obviously because of your background and your passion for helping people. And so what was that transition like going from working from somebody at, for somebody else, and then all of a sudden having this total freedom to be your own boss and do what you wanted for the, you know, whatever you decide that would be
EB (03:58):
Yeah, it’s, you know, it was one of those things where, and I think everyone who is an entrepreneur goes through this where you’re so excited to do the thing you love to do. And then as soon as you jump in with both feet, you realize, Oh, I actually do that thing, the least amount of time. I now have to learn how to run a business. And that was really surprising to me. Yes, it’s it was absolutely amazing to be my own boss within that, that comes with a whole barrel of challenges that you just, you can’t know until you’re in it. Ubut I do love the flexibility. I do love that I can absolutely help my clients in the very best way that suits their needs. And I don’t have to answer to anyone about that. Uso it’s, it’s definitely different than I expected. I wouldn’t change it for anything. Uyeah, it’s, it was a very steep learning curve.
Katie (04:52):
Yeah. I can relate to that. I had the same thing I was coming out of always working for somebody else. And then all of a sudden, I remember I was just thinking back to like that first day where I didn’t have to go into the office and Oh my gosh, that feeling was so amazing, but so terrifying at the same time. What were some of those first steps that you took, obviously you’re you were going into a coaching field. So did you get any kind of certifications or anything?
EB (05:15):
I did. I w it’s really funny because it was basically a job I had been doing already for years in my recruiting and staffing cause I was in charge of learning and development as well. But it was one of those things where I, I wanted to get certified because I wanted to have some, you know, very professional tools. I wanted to be able to have the coaching language. UI wanted to be able to have kind of that third-party proof of that I knew what I was doing. UI think if I was to go back and do it again, I don’t know that I would worry so much about a certification, but at the time I found it was important. So I actually made sure to get that before I quit my full-time job. UI sort of felt like I needed to have that under my belt. So I could say officially, you know, I’m a coach. So that was, that was interesting. I sort of did not love my program. I really didn’t feel that it was,unecessary once I got into it. Uand again, I think if I went back, I wouldn’t do it again, but at the time it felt like I really needed to have,
Katie (06:14):
Yeah, just a little extra confidence that, you know, in the end.
EB (06:18):
Yeah, absolutely. And it honestly helped me, even though I really did hate my program. It helped me learn like what kind of coach I wanted to be and what kind of coach I didn’t want to be. So yeah. And give me confidence of like, yeah, I’ve got this piece of paper that someone signed. I know what I’m doing.
Katie (06:32):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, you know, in the business world, you hear, you know, business coach, career, coach, life coach, you hear about all these different coaching things. And if somebody has never done that before what I mean, can you help kind of explain to them what coaching means, I guess specifically your career coaching, what you do.
EB (06:50):
Yeah. and it’s kind of funny, cause I was very much one of those people that I was like, I do not want to be called a coach, just ill. It would just it’s especially, I guess maybe from being from California very much the life coachy woo thing is a thing here. And there is like, because like you said, a lot of people don’t know what it means. And so there is some sort of stigma, there is some sort of idea that it’s just completely woo and very much like unlicensed therapy. Uit’s in truth, none of those things, but once I became comfortable with it and I realized like, Oh no, I love what I’m doing and how I’m doing it. Like I’m very much proudly refer to myself as a career coach now. Uall coaching is different business. Coaching is very different than career coaching, which is very different than general life coaching.
EB (07:32):
There’s also health coach. I mean, there’s just so many types for me personally, I’m actually technically a bad like quote unquote coach in that for the most part, coaching is very much reminding people that they have all of the resources they need within themselves. They have the answers that they need. They just need to dig deep and find them and they need to have the confidence to trust those instincts. And so being a coach for the most part is about guiding them there through questions and exercises and conversations where I become a technically a bad coach is that with career coaching, that’s all of those things are very important, but there is also an aspect of, okay. Yeah. But you need to get your resume to bill on Tuesday. Like I have to act, yeah. I’ve got to give like hard, you know, action items.
EB (08:20):
It’s like, okay, you want this job at that place. Did you network with this one particular person? You know, and I, I have to give sometimes very hard, very fast. It’s not even advice. It’s sort of just homework items for the most part. So my coaching is a blend of dieting and confidence building and questioning and you know, really helping people find their kind of their, you know, their purpose for lack of a better word. Ubut then again, very nuts and bolts. Okay. How do we make that happen in a very real world way? Yeah. And I liked that I’m the kind
Katie (08:56):
Of person where like you can sit and talk to me all day about these things, but if you don’t kind of give me some action items, like you said to move forward, I just feel as lost as I did before I started. So I really get that. Yeah. I think that’s a great approach. And so who are you usually working with? Is it people within the corporate world or these business owners? What’s your kind of target market
EB (09:17):
That I love the most. And that I’m really happy working with right now is for the most part, women who have sort of fallen into a career that they didn’t necessarily plan out proactively and now they’ve sort of come up for air and they realize they’re unhappy that they don’t enjoy what they’re doing, but they also have no idea what else is out there or what else they can do. And they’re sort of terrified to figure out what that next step is. Because once you have, you know, you know, family obligations and responsibilities, all of these things become much more charged than I just want to do something. I like, you know, it’s, I want to do something that makes me feel like a whole person, but also puts food on the table. And it’s, it’s a difficult thing for women to come to that point because there’s this idea that it’s selfish to want to do something that you like. It’s a very strange cultural thing that’s in place. So I love working with, you know, women in that spot and really helping them understand that they can do what, something, they enjoy, something that fulfills them and make money at it.
Katie (10:23):
Yeah. That’s so interesting that you, you said that because I’ve been talking to women from all different generations and backgrounds, and one thing that I’ve noticed is that my, my mom’s generation, they kind of had that, that set mindset where it’s like, you just go to work. You just, I mean, it’s just the thing you do and it’s not like, you know, that’s just it. Ubut my generation is very much of the ideation of like, well, I want to actually love what I do and be successful and make money. So it’s such an interesting shift and you know, everybody from different duration generations has different experiences with that. But you talked about some of the triggering points of when people might start looking for coaching, like they’re unhappy, they’re feeling unfulfilled, but how do you kind of explain to people when it might be a good time to actually start hiring coach? Because some people I’ve talked to coaches where they’re like I’ve had clients and they came to me and they weren’t ready, you know, or things like that. So what’s kind of your marker for when people might need to start going out there and looking for someone to coach them.
EB (11:19):
Yeah, it’s funny. I it’s actually the first question I ask any client that I work with I asked them, you know, what’s gotten you to the point where you woke up one day and not only were you unhappy, but you were unhappy and you said, I need help with this. And the answers I get back are truly varied. Ubut it generally comes down to, it’s not just about being unhappy any longer, like they’ve, they’ve done unhappy, they’ve gotten past angry. It’s sort of like, you know, the cycles of grief really. And they’ve done all of that. They’ve dealt with, you know, having that pit in their stomach every Sunday and being miserable and coming home and just like sitting there numb and being so unhappy. And it’s something finally clicks with them where being that unhappy, isn’t worth it. They know they need to get out because they can’t continue to feel the way they’re feeling, but they have absolutely no idea where to even begin looking. And that’s when I say is the best time to find a coach for yourself. If you are at that point, you’re like, no, I’m ready. Like I’m done feeling this way. I am so ready to move forward, but I feel absolutely stuck and blindsided if you’re not at that point where you’re ready to put all of that stuff in the past, it’s, it’s not time yet. You have to be at that point where it’s like, screw it. It is swim.
Katie (12:42):
Yeah, absolutely. I was definitely at that point that sometime in my life, so I can relate to that. And well, you mentioned self-confidence and I feel like that is definitely a through line that I’ve seen with a lot of the women that I’ve talked to is it’s dealing with self-confidence and really building that up. And I know you work with women in all different situations in corporate jobs and you know, maybe not in corporate jobs, but I’d love to talk about how you help people, help women specifically build confidence. Whether that’s going into an interview, starting a business, asking for promotion, whatever it is because we need it and all those things. How do you work with your clients to really start building that? Self-Confidence up?
EB (13:19):
Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting. Yeah, because like you had asked, you know, who do I work with? Are they corporate? Are they running their own business? I it’s, it’s really interesting for me. It’s rare to have the person who’s looking to start their own business mine. Most of my clients are in the corporate space or they’re freelancing within the corporate space. Because just that’s how a lot of creative work works. And I do work with a lot of creative people. So the reason their confidence is so low and the reason they are totally questioning everything about themselves is due to the corporate environments that they’re in. So once w you know, we can really take a look and step back and be objective about, you know, the type of environment that they’re in and how that has affected who they are and how they feel about themselves.
EB (14:09):
It’s easier for us to then be objective about, you know, what they’re good at, where their wheelhouse lies, what they enjoy doing, and when do they kill it? Like when do they rock the most? Once they are able to see that it’s not, that they’re not good at what they do, it’s that they’re in a structure in an environment, in an organization that has created doubt within them. And that is 80% of the case with my class, just because corporate systems are not truly set up to fulfill most people, long-term, they’re set up to make, you know, a couple dudes money somewhere. So once I can get them objective about that, it’s, it really starts with having them keep track of every tiny win, every big explosive, amazing accomplishment, all of the things so that they can look at it. And it’s not just like, Oh, I think I’m okay at this. It’s like, no, I’ve got actual proof. I’ve got, you know, evidence, I’ve got facts. I know what I’m doing and been good at it. And then they start to remember who they are and that’s when you can see some really amazing stuff happened.
Katie (15:19):
Yeah. I love that exercise cause I’m such a proof kind of person. I like facts. And I can hear rationalize myself to a point where I’m like, that’s not, that didn’t really happen, you know, or I was just in a different way. So having that actual proof is so powerful. I love that. And I do something similar where any kind of positive feedback. I keep a little folder in my email where I keep all of that and whenever I need to go back to it, it’s like, Oh, it’s just like a, a nice little boost when I really would have probably talked to myself out of feeling better before.
EB (15:50):
Right. And that’s one of those things that is something I used to do as well as I had that folder. Anytime I got any sort of like kudos from someone, you know, kept that email, put it in that folder or whatever it was. And one time when I was in a terrible corporate environment where, and this is a thing that happens a lot where a lot of my clients come to me because they’ve basically been gas lit. There’s a lot of, kind of like high school politics antics. And, you know, they’re, they find themselves in strange positions just because they’ve been wrapped up in this weird political thing where I had a boss who just decided due to some weird click, he wanted to get rid of me. And I, you know, I was hauled at HR and told I was underperforming and I had that folder of like, okay, but when you were on vacation, I took on your role. Like, here’s all of the emails saying I did an amazing job. So, you know, I’m confused here. Umnd it’s, it’s, again, it goes back to those corporate environments. Not that every corporate environment is toxic. Not that everywhere is a miserable, miserable place to work. It’s just that they really can be. And, you know, and having these things, having this proof, hnd just remembering that where you’re currently working is a not your career and be not who you are that can help that.
Katie (17:04):
Yeah, absolutely. And kind of going off of that idea, you know, I have definitely been in toxic work environments, but I’ve seen, you know, my friends who are not, and they’ve been in great positive environments, but if you’re working with somebody or somebody listening, who is in an environment where they’re feeling that toxicity, they’re feeling the negative energy are there ways for them to kind of shift that culture themselves, even though they might not be somebody at the top, but in the, the, the environment, the corporate environment, are there ways for them to, to move away from that negativity and help make it a positive place to work?
EB (17:39):
Yeah. That’s a really interesting one. And that’s one that I worked with a lot in my last several positions, because culture is so, so important and you kind of have two options, right? You either lean into, you know, the unfortunateness of it, the gossipy stuff, the, you know, the toxicity or you change it. Those really are only your two options. Um, unfortunate. A lot of people feel that the only way to change it is to leave, which I think is absolutely the exact thing you should be doing. You know, if you find yourself really feeling like, okay, I’m here, but I, I enjoy my job. I enjoy what I do. I just, the environment I’m in is not healthy. You have to be very specific about what that is. You’d need to be able to pinpoint it. Like, is it that you have a poor manager?
EB (18:25):
Is it that your, you know, partner, your partner that you work with on a daily basis is, you know, just a negative person and is always, you know, putting everything and everyone down, is it that your commute is two hours long by the time you get there, you’re mentally exhausted. So you don’t have the mental, you know, kind of wherewithal to handle just the little day-to-day nitty gritties. Is it that, you know, it’s a mom and pop shop that, you know, they’re never going to change. And everyone is, you know, trying to force, you know, this small business to be something that it’s not, you know, you really need to pinpoint. Cause it can be a multitude of things once you’ve got it pinpointed, that’s when you can start working on it. You know, if it’s a poor manager, then that may mean having some tough conversations with that manager and saying, you know, how can I help you succeed?
EB (19:15):
And really just reframing like your, you know, your needs, your desires, your career goals can be met, but only if, you know, your manager feels that you’re doing your best to help them meet theirs. So maybe it’s an eight, you know, you’re going to have to manage your manager situation. If you have, you know, truly toxic coworkers, maybe it’s about attempting to disengage a little bit. Maybe it is you just don’t, you know, gossip in the lunchroom. Maybe it is that if someone’s being really negative about something, you sort of let them get that out. And then, you know, Oh, but what about this amazing thing that happened? What about the, you know, that pitch that, that client bought that we threw together in 20 minutes? Like how red was that? Sort of, this is going to sound potentially really . It’s sometimes you have to train your coworkers the way you would a dog, like some positive reinforcement instead of reacting to the negative stuff.
EB (20:10):
And I was actually talking to someone yesterday, he’s he’s got any job and he loves his role responsibilities, loves what he’s doing, but he’s miserable because he’s at a place where everyone is fairly introverted. No one is really, there’s no comradery. And he’s used to, you know, coworkers wanting to hang out and go get lunch together, or go grab a cocktail after work, or maybe join a softball team. And so he’s really struggling with trying to pull, you know, some interaction out. Uand if an entire culture is one way and you’re the outlier, then that means you’re probably gonna have to look elsewhere. Umo maybe it, isn’t your direct coworkers that you have this camaraderie with. Maybe you end up, you know, becoming buddies with someone totally outside of your department. You know, you find maybe it’s, the receptionist loves the same films, YouTube, whatever it may be. It means you have to be cognizant of that and realize that yes, you can change things, but sometimes things shouldn’t be changed it’s you? That might need to do something a little differently. So again, it’s truly about pinpointing the issue, finding some workarounds and taking responsibility for how you’d like it to be, mithin the constraints that already exist there.
Katie (21:22):
Yeah. I like that approach of taking personal responsibility. A lot of the time I felt so out of control in that toxic environment that I was in and I just complained and did nothing about it. So if I take, you know, I eventually, I took that personal responsibility and got the heck out of there, but the right move. But you know, for a long time I just was doing and feeling like everybody else should be doing something and I should just be here and they should do something for me. So I really liked that. I feel like change is going to happen a lot quicker and it’s going to be more positive when you, when you take that action yourself. So I really liked that a lot. And generally
EB (21:57):
Only if you’re feeling a particular way and you’re in a company of more than two people, nine times out of 10, there’s going to be someone else there that feels the same way you do. So if you’ve got any way to reach that, you know, reach that person, may, you know, maybe it is the HR director, who’s been trying to infuse a happier, better workplace. And she just doesn’t know that anyone else feels that there’s an issue, you know? Uso that can truly help too, is to try and find that other person that feels the way you do, because I guarantee someone else’s, you know, just as upset about it.
Katie (22:25):
Yeah, totally. I agree more. And so what are some things coming up in the future that you’re excited about within your business? Any big plans? Yeah.
EB (22:34):
This year is a bit of a turning point for me because I, so I’ve, it’s been about, you know, I spent the first year and a half, two years solidly. I have, you know, working with clients, but truly finding my groove in how I like to coach people, but also that learning curve, you know, that I mentioned earlier, I’m over that now. Like I, now I know what I’m doing in terms of how to run a business. We’re talking like the stupid, nitty-gritty like spreadsheets of your expenses kind of stuff. Uso all of that stuff, now that I’m up over that hump of just how to do the admin, how to deal with, you know, my softwares and my databases and my workflows and my systems and all those things. Like now that I’m up there, like what’s on the horizon is great because I’m no longer buried under that.
EB (23:20):
I can really focus on not just my clients, but how I want to coach my clients and what kind of coaching I want to be doing. I can do bigger, better things. So I’m really excited about this year. Honestly, it feels different because like the, like that ha that initial hustle of I’ve just got to get this thing off the ground and I’ve got to get some cash in and I’ve just got to do it, do it, do it like it, unfortunately you start your business. Like you don’t get to really enjoy the moment of it a lot at the very beginning. Cause you know, there’s like, Oh, this other thing that I need to learn and Oh crap, how do I set up that other thing? And let me eat. Like, there’s so much of that. And now that I finally pass it, it feels really good.
EB (23:58):
So I’m working with you know, in a, in a way I’m turning down more clients because I’m really wanting to just accept, you know, the people who I know want to be involved in the type of coaching that I truly want to do. I’m writing a book which I’m super excited about. So I can just share a lot of the knowledge in an easier format for a lot of people. Cause I, you know, coaching isn’t inexpensive. And I, my whole thing though, is to really help people and really help them grow their careers and not be sitting at their desk, crying into their sad desk salad. So I’m, you know, I’m really doing a lot more this year. That’s just getting a lot more of me out there. Instead of me being here, huddled in my sweat pants, figuring out how to set up, you know, a new calendaring system. So I’m really excited about that.
Katie (24:48):
Yeah. Awesome. What an amazing turning point. And I can only imagine you’re going to do some amazing things, so I’ll definitely keep an eye out for that book. Cause I definitely want to check it out. That’s so exciting. And do you have any recommendations, whether it be courses, podcasts, other books, anything like that that you would recommend to them?
EB (25:05):
Absolutely. I’d say if you are starting your own business, I do have some clients that have gotten to the point where they realize it’s not the corporate, you know, toxic environment. It’s not that they’re unhappy. They just want to go out on their own and do their own thing. Which they’re super fun by the way. I love when people decide they want to start their own businesses. I have been directing them to Zoho a boss of the ownership method. She is absolutely amazing. I’d say even if you’re not looking to start your own business, but you really kind of want to step into your leadership, step into yourself, step into how you work best. I would check her out. She’s at the ownership method.com. She is phenomenal in terms of books. There’s so many for people stuck in kind of like a hamster wheel in terms of their career.
EB (25:54):
I would look for, you know, the new rules of work. It’s by Alexandra, I cannot pronounce your last name for the life of me up Cavalos I believe it is. And then also Adam Grant he wrote a book called the originals that is when I recommend to everyone. And it is whether you’re in a corporate environment, whether you’re a freelancing working for yourself or whether you’re starting your own company, it’s this book is so inspiring. It’s very much about how the person who’s done something different is the one that’s succeeded. And it’s, it’s really, really fascinating. Cause I, I find that with a lot of my clients, they get into this space of I’m I feel different. I feel like everyone knows something I don’t. And I feel like I’m doing things the wrong way, where for me I’m like, yeah, yeah, you are. That’s the good thing. And his book is very much about that. So I think that would be right there for him.
Katie (26:55):
Perfect. Well, I’ll definitely link to all of those in the show notes. And can you let everybody know how to find you online?
EB (27:01):
Yes. you can head over to Eby sanders.com. It’s pretty simple. At any given moment in time, I have a ton of free free resources for everyone out there. I’ve got quizzes, I’ve got workbooks, I’ve got tons and tons of articles. Everything’s right there in the, on the front page or you can click on the little tab that says free stuff and you can download a way to your heart’s content.
Katie (27:24):
Fantastic. Yeah. I’ll link to all those as well in the show notes, everybody can find him. So ed, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It’s been such a pleasure to talk to you.
EB (27:33):
Thank you so much for having me, Katie.
